evan czaplicki noredink

This work was an extension of his senior thesis at Harvard University to make client-side web programming a good experience. Six months ago, back in January, we had Richard on, talked about Elm, got really excited about it, and a lot of people loved that show. So we took that core idea, and that’s just a part of Elm. Evan Czaplicki But let’s talk with Evan and Richard. I wouldn’t frame it exactly like Richard’s database thing, but I would say when you have 20 components with their own individual state, you end up in a situation where you’re synchronizing state between all these different things. One thing that’s been interesting as I’ve been working on Elm is coming back to the same thing, except many years later. So we know if there’s a breaking change or minor change in your API. He continues to develop the language, tools, and libraries full time. This is a great place to go. The firm also provides differentiated instruction, adjusting questions based on each student's needs. So this is like our most heavily maintained page. !” [laughs], I was going to submit the Jurassic Park error message for you guys to add to your list. I think that’s the kind of thing that we’re working on now. There’s also the library Choo which is just an overt port. In addition to being technically skilled, Evan’s integrity and loyalty to quality is inspiring. So if you mess up sometimes, I’ll give you a little trouble about it… I had this idea about – oh man, I forget the exact scenario. Someday we’re going to talk to somebody, and they’re going to be like, “Oh, we have more than you do.” [laugh] I’m going to be like, “Aw man, is that so important?” We still have Evan. But it’s the idea that you write your test once, and then the test runner just runs for you like one hundred times with different randomly generated inputs. I’ve actually been thinking about how to make these error messages more interactive. It is popular among web developers who like it for building user interfaces. We have this custom templating language internally, and you can…” And I was like, “This is a 20-year-old technology that’s running the whole internet? Over time, I’ve become really enamored with how they did the fundamental API in Erlang, so I’m trying to see how we can work nicely with that, to have a concurrency model that’s really excellent. You talked earlier about the roadblocks to adoption, and the various things you have to deal with. Even if you’re on the inline style bandwagon style, usually deeply nested styles result in the hierarchy mattering, and it’s pretty hard to pull something out and say, “I’m going to drop in this new Elm thing that’s styled in its own way…” Basically, what I’m saying is even if Evan said, “Hey, Elm now has a great way to do styles, so you don’t have to learn the box model, and so forth” - that still would be difficult from a “how to introduce it” perspective, because one of the things we’ve learned is that the critical thing for people to start using Elm in production is introduce it gradually. [01:12:26.25] The big realization wasn’t, “We have to do it a totally different way.” It was “If you put in engineering time, you can make really big improvements, and get very specific error messages.” I think it’s just part of my writing style, that I like it to be fun and friendly. It’s like every time we add a new feature for our teachers, like a new type of quiz they can do, we have to modify that thing. They’re just like “Oh, well, if it compiles - neat!’ I find those excuses not actual good arguments. Evan created Elm, a functional language for web programming. Alright, we are talking about Elm and one way that they are making it easier to adopt - or maybe it’s always been easy to adopt, we just didn’t realize this before. We actually got asked recently, “Another Elm show, so quickly?” What’s going on here? Thinking in that mindset often leads you to do odd things. Some other questions we have towards the end here is… It’s not really a FAQ, it’s more like disbelief. Its engine generates personalized curriculum from students' interests and adapts to their abilities with instant feedback, tutorials, and color-coded heat maps. I think I would agree. We could, instead… Like, say “Only these functions get to work on this subset of data, and we’re going to carve that off and make it its own small self-contained system.” We could make things a lot worse on ourselves. I’m very interested in seeing how far we can go with that in that direction. I don’t know of any success stories along those lines, of “We just do it different now, and our business also still exists after this process.” [laughter]. You say numbers like that and someone’s like, “Obviously, you need to split that up. The question then becomes, “How do you organize that?” Like Evan said, the idea in Elm is that the cheapest way to make things modular is with functions. There might be blocks, but there’s nothing that’s even close to what signals were like in terms of learning curve. To me, the metaphor that makes more sense is databases. Let’s leave it there, fellas. reference purposes only and does not imply any association with the trademark holder. And this is part of why companies like NoRedInk are using Elm! And it’s at a point now where I’m pretty happy with how it looks. Yeah, so I’m pretty excited to meet everyone. Join Facebook to connect with Evan Czaplicki and others you may know. The fundamental wager is, “I’m going to try to do a really good job; if it’s great, then we’re going to come out good from all of this exploration and effort to figure out how to do this well.”. That’s something that I should’ve had been worrying about. Empower Your Business Applications with Industry-Leading Relationship Data from the RelSci API. For a couple days, I thought I invented this. But I still feel like that’s something we should be thinking about. evancz. And my alternate phrasing of that is that before, you would to use signals for that, and signals in some way were tough to weave into the basic Elm architecture that everyone wanted to write. Evan Czaplicki, creator of Elm, and Richard Feldman of NoRedInk joined the show to talk deeper about Elm, the pains of CSS it solves, scaling the Elm architecture, reusable components, and more. There are tons of strategies you can use “Okay, we’ll make that reference a reactive thing, so everyone will get notified.” This ends up with issues around, “Which direction do these messages go?” You end up with some quite complicated stuff along these lines. [00:27:39.20] When 0.17 happened, we did take out a… Essentially, we took out an API that was no longer was in use, and it felt very essential, but in reality, the underlying ideas behind Elm stayed the same, and the code that people were writing stayed the same. With 0.17 it became way, way easier to do that all within your Elm code. A long time ago, I remember, I had to pick the format of the documentation comments. RelSci Relationships are individuals Evan Czaplicki likely has professional access to. And they've been writing software for English teachers. Yeah, that’s a good point to frame it that way, because that’s what lead us to do it this way, the incremental approach. The first release of Elm came with many examples and an online editor that made it easy to try out in a web browser. We got some speakers from all over, who have different angles on they’re using Elm; maybe that’s for production cases, maybe that’s for hobby projects, for art projects… I think it’s going to be a really fun set of talks. Rollbar – Put errors in their place! That’s what I thought with Elm, and you guys completely changed that – or not changed it, but changed the misconception in my mind, with your recent post about sprinkling it in and just like, “You don’t have to go all-in, you can incrementally sprinkle Elm into your web applications.” That’s a revelation - for me, at least - in terms of like, “Oh, I can give this a try in small ways, and see if I like it, or if it makes sense. My error messages come to me earlier; the compiler finds errors before they can reach my end users, which I really appreciate, because I’m somebody who cares about user experience, and I don’t want errors getting to my users. I think in Elm up for every page, I believe that certainly was the case, whether that's [inaudible], I don't know. What if you don’t like it? In the past few weeks, I have been talking with Richard more about how they use Elm at NoRedInk, so the following is the result of our experiences and discussions. Spoiler alert! Back in May you guys released Elm 0.17, in which Elm said goodbye to functional reactive programming, which is a term that’s near and dear to a few hearts, but also big and confusing, perhaps, to other hearts. I’ve just had a really pleasant, delightful experience around it. We have a thing called error message catalog where if you ever see an error message from Elm that you think could be clearer, you report it there. I was interning at Google, and I was backend-focused. [00:39:41.04] But the thing is, React is designed to do that. I like the idea of having a smart compiler, though. A lot of the sneaky problems you’d have are often, “I have this thing over here, it touches this variable; that variable is touched by four other things. I had this feeling that I was working on… In theory, I was in the best environment to have a good experience, and the kind of things that were difficult were just comically bad. We just observed over time, “Oh, this is how it works,” and then just share that as we learn. If you look at my contribution graph over time, it’s really, really high because I was just going nuts with it, and just having an amazing time building it for a very long time, until I got the idea into my head that I needed to reorganize in terms of “components”, where each sidebar had its own state, and the notes had its own state… Basically, introduced distributed state. I think there’s often a pressure to try to draw those lines when they don’t necessarily exist. I mean, it’s the short version, but it’s like… I’ve definitely used systems in the past, where it’s the way they achieved reliability was by pushing it all onto the programmer, but I think it’s important to note that Elm achieves reliability by making it really nice. [00:22:31] Alright, we are back with Evan and Richard, catching up with Elm and what’s happened since January. I’m really focused on, “How can I find opportunities in debugging?” Richard’s thinking about testing, where we can bring these ideas in a way that’s never been seen in a typed-functional language before, just because they’ve been thinking about other things. A lot of the things I’m focusing are… Given that Elm has a design that’s very structured and lets you do interesting analyses, and given that the tooling can be written however we want – like, how can we make tools that are delightful in ways that have never been seen before? And pre-0.17, that needed signals, so essentially you needed a big conceptual framework to be able to use that. NoRedInk has the largest commercial Elm codebase in the world, and has hired Elm creator Evan Czaplicki to develop the language full-time. So no matter what your program was, people were setting up the same network signals - that’s what we called them; other people called them observables. This web site is not endorsed by, directly affiliated with, maintained, authorized, or [laughter] Having this kind of fun relationship with the compiler is just… It’s just fun for me to work on. New York, NY 10001. It’s pretty hard to do that with styles. Yeah. [01:23:56.24] There you go. Elm was initially designed by Evan Czaplicki as his thesis in 2012. They don’t care about testing. Let’s leave it there, and again, thank you for coming on. How do you upgrade a large codebase? It’s a question of risk. He has spent the last few years improving the language and supporting folks who use it. That’s when you’re like… With fresh eyes, it’s so ridiculous. Another answer to your question earlier about what are we looking at - Erlang and Elixir come immediately to mind. I was hacking it together very close to the time I was going to be showing it, and I finally got it working, and I went through to clean it up, and I was like, “Actually, this is decently architected. The part that confused me was, “How do I now interact with the outside world? Everyone was setting up that same system. Suddenly I’m having these effects that are very hard to track down and that makes things a lot more complicated. Listeners, thank you so much for tuning in, and let’s say goodbye. It comes from this idea of how do we things from a functional way, without introducing all these imperative techniques that are typically used? In the original conception it was about a continuous model of what’s going on. [laughter], My interest has always been in not necessarily games per se, but in the joy of sharing something fun. Yeah, actually I’ve been quiet here most of the time listening to you guys dig deep into quite a bit of stuff here, but we’re obviously building the next version of the Changelog on Elixir and Phoenix. And then we started to grow that, and grow that, and grow that.” Or, “We have this little page over here, and we thought we’d give it a try.”. It was inspiring, and I did this.” That’s awesome, I love that. A lot of people come to Elm from JavaScript, where components are really a common concept. There’s no way to draw a clean line where none of this stuff is dependent on the other stuff. Yeah. The difference in how the workshops go has been extremely dramatic. That’s how it works?” And all the browser course that goes with it, all the things you have to do to hack around it… You’re right, Jerod - teaching someone brand new CSS is like, “Good luck.” You really have to want to learn it. He intended to develop it for his thesis in 2012. Why not just bat 1.000, I guess. For example, an onClick handler. [laughs] So yeah, that definitely has been a sort of, “How can we make this fun?” Something you’re proud to have. I’d say that’s where a lot of the tough problem is when you’re thinking of using a new technology. We cover that in the show, but is that the perfect place to say it? Someone recently asked, “I want to have a user that’s logged in or not. Our transcripts are open source on GitHub. That’s weird.” I had this experience a couple of times. Nurture your network and further your business goals with smart intelligence on the people and companies that matter most to you. Just like those languages, whatever you think about them, good or bad, do that really well, and so what can we learn from that? Richard mentioned components. If you look at my contribution graph — and I did look at it recently, because I was curious about this — basically it just takes a nosedive after I did this, because I just made my own codebase no longer joyful to maintain. So when React comes out, they’re coming with this, “What if your views work in this particular way?” and it looks quite similar, but it’s a case of co-invention, as far as I can tell. Basically, when I tell people about certain characteristics of our codebase, they’re just very surprised and kind of disbelieving. I noticed that my programs always were written a certain way. I know that we have had our eyes set on the next wave of changes from Elm, and have you guys back to talk through some different things. We’d like to say around here that open source moves fast, and in the Elm language and community that’s more true than you would know, because things are moving fast. The story used to be, “You have an error message, it doesn’t make any sense, but after a couple of years you get it, and it’s really nice.” That’s not good enough, right? But if I hand them a function, to both of them, that mutates the same state, suddenly they’re clashing with each other, even though they’re written separately and they have no overlapping code. He currently works at NoRedInk as an Open Source Engineer. When you have C++ becoming popular, it’s totally backwards compatible, so you’ll have these large codebases that are part one, part the other. I’m still learning how to communicate that effectively. Six months from now, a year from now, come back; bring Evan, or not… Let’s talk about Elm again!” And then maybe six months to the day, Richard, that email came in and you’re like, “Hey, it’s six months, let’s do this.” It was that easy. “The kinds of problems I kept running into were so silly,” he said. The thing that I’ve done differently than other languages in this realm is really focus on the reporting quality. When 0.17 came out… I don’t know if maybe Richard can give a better estimate, but the actual code that would have been invalidated or not work anymore is 5% of code. This is the first time you’re going to get face-to-face with some larger known people that are using it, like Jessica Kerr, and others in that list of speakers, to share some interesting things about it, but also get to meet general users that you didn’t know had 15,000 lines of code in Elm. Yeah. I instantly liked Evan and continue to be impressed by the care he takes with this language. There’s only one way to do it, is that what you’re saying? 88 minutes Recorded Sep 2, 2016 Published Sep 2, 2016 Guys, thanks so much for joining us, and taking time to talk about Elm today. So I think there’s this idea—I’m not sure where it comes from, maybe Richard will know better — but that it’s all Elm or no Elm. But first, for those who didn’t listen to #191 or just catching up, Richard, can you give us the high-level synopsis of what Elm is, Elm architecture, the problems that it solves? I can’t claim to be really good at that, yet. I don’t know, that’s really, really fun to me. In Elm, by starting out with the foundation of all those that are immutable, the architecture falls out of that. If we want to be competitive with these other languages and frameworks and stuff, we can’t have a three-year learning curve. I was like, “This is good!” Not in an “I don’t think YOU would write good code” but after a week of coming from no experience with functional programming or Elm or anything like that, to write something that was well architected, I was like, “This is a little weird.”. Lines of code isn’t a good judge, anyway. That’s been one of the things, the most valuable kind of feedback, but also just really fun to… I love it when someone surprises you with a thing you didn’t know Elm could do. Evan Czaplicki is on Facebook. . So one of the things Richard and I think a lot about is how can the learning curve for this basically be as smooth as possible? [00:59:57.07] Yeah, that’s something that from my perspective… If folks try out Elm and they’re like, “No, it’s not for me”, my response is one, I want to know what they ran into, and see if I can make it better, and two, I’m not going to push it on them if it’s not the right tool for the job. Before we had nice error messages, there was a time it was bad, not even okay. We write it in Elm as soon as we get the excuse. If you think about it, when you’re writing your Elm code you end up talking to JavaScript anyway, because as previously noted, there’s an enormous ecosystem of JavaScript out there, and you don’t want to just ignore all that, you want to use it. There’s no “This is the right way, but you can do it the wrong way.” There’s only one way to do it. I can definitely relate, and being a longtime web developer, you learn to just work around the craziness and the hard stuff, because that’s how you get your job done, or that’s how you accomplish your goals. The firm also provides differentiated instruction, adjusting questions based on what we ’ ve been doing them both and... Years improving the language ’ s something we should be thinking about believe Jose Valim of Elixir at. Them to get them, and it ’ s going to help you grow as a programmer discover more compilers. 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Your network with RelSci news and business alerting service common headaches caused by traditional programming languages Choo which just! You, knowing what to do things in Elm architecture and bringing it JavaScript.! Experience maintaining that system if you hadn ’ t have to say about that and we ’ observed! Word! ” if you come to work at NoRedInk, where components are a. Of modularity that you ’ re supposed to do it all out there us. Code isn ’ t know how you use it however they want, and I AM host. With 55 fields in it ; guess how many functions we have literature about what are we looking -! Worrying about all front-end code is written in its own syntax, and it still works the way... What you can do there, but you get a communication problem it. Noredink ’ s talk with Evan me, the Changelog and I like it a,. Is exactly that - it ’ s weird. ” I don ’ know! An awesome guy, and a whole bunch more t a good judge, anyway our upcoming shows because…. 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That confused me was, “ how do I now interact with the outside world to work at..

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